[00:00:00] Chris Grainger: Welcome to Eco asks y. Today we have an idea episode when Wet, having an inside look in modular data centers. We brought in two experts here, so we have Brett Lehman and Michael Hennings from P cx, a division of Hubble. So welcome guys. How are you doing? Doing 

[00:00:20] Michael Hennings: well. Glad you could have us, Chris. Good, Chris, how are 

[00:00:22] Bret Lehman: you?

[00:00:23] Chris Grainger: I'm excited. I'm excited to have, have you guys. Definitely would love to get an idea because when you say modular data systems, we met, we met before to get prepared to, to have this conversation. I don't have a lot of experience in modular data centers, so lay a foundation for us. I'm not sure who wants to take this one, but, but get us off the ground and let's, let's go.

What, what exactly is a modular data center? 

[00:00:45] Bret Lehman: Well, you know, it can, it can take on a variety of different, different meanings really, Chris. Um, you know, 15 years ago modular data centers were born kind of in shipping, contain. ISO shipping containers, and they're still deployed that way today. Uh, but they're also, uh, custom enclosures that, that house modular data centers.

Uh, at Pcx we build electrical skids that are modular in the sense that they form an electrical room that goes into a larger data center. The, the entire data center isn't a module itself, but it's it's modular infrastructure that goes 

[00:01:20] Michael Hennings: into a larger. I think today when we talk about modular data centers, we'll primarily focus on an all in one data center.

So a either an ISO container or a custom made shelter that has your electrical, mechanical, and IT network all within one component. Um, they'll allow for cloud computing near the edge or, or really anywhere that an owner may need to deploy a data. To Brett's Point, lot of different options. And modular data center means a lot of things to a lot of different people.

At pcx, they have the capabilities to really customize that solution. So if it's just electrical, just mechanical, just it, or a combination of all three, uh, we can do it on an open air skid that could go into a building or a standalone shelter or, or container. There's a lot of, lot of options there, Chris, and a lot of flexibility and obviously a lot of customiz.

Within, uh, within the solution. 

[00:02:15] Chris Grainger: Yeah. I mean, you took the word, the word, the word flexibility was on the tip of my tongue. Cause it sounds like there's a ton of flexibility in, in your solution here. And I'm curious, so this is, this is more a curiosity gets to Chris. I have to ask the question. P cx, what does it stand for?

[00:02:30] Michael Hennings: Uh, what a, 

[00:02:32] Bret Lehman: well, it de depends on who you ask. Um, okay. It doesn't, it's, it's not, it's not names. It's, it's not, uh, an acronym for anything. Some people say Premier customer Experie. Um, but, uh, you know, I'm, I'm not sure there's a, there's a, there's a, a right answer to that 

[00:02:51] Michael Hennings: question. We, okay. We've had this debate, you know, PCX, you know, 30 years ago was a, a division of a, of a contractor, the name to Pcx, and it's, uh, the DeLillo family bought it.

They, they kept the name, but somewhere the, what that acronym SOFA was, was lost in Hubble. We see a lot of, of value and equity in the Pcx game and the brand they've built. So it's, uh, it's kind of a funny question. It's. Just answer for a quality product that, uh, that, that pre-fabricated solutions. Right.

[00:03:19] Chris Grainger: Hey, it sounds cool to me. So, I mean, let's, let's, let's pull on the pcx thread a little bit more. So, how exactly is Pcx serving industry? I'd love to hear a little more about your vision and your mission, things like that for, for what you guys are doing. 

[00:03:32] Bret Lehman: Yeah, so we're a, we're a, we're a systems integrator at the end of the day, right?

We, we build fully integrated systems, pre-manufactured, pre-tested, That are, uh, either skids, infrastructure skids, electrical, or mechanical skids that wen to a larger building, as I mentioned earlier, an all-in-one modular data center as Mike described. Mm-hmm. , uh, that would sit outside of a facility somewhere, whether that's in a university hospital environment or also, uh, we've got a ul, uh, branded, uh, line of switchboards and we integrate those UL 8 91 switchboards into as many of our products as we possibly.

So we're, we're systems integrated. You know, we're small, we're nimble. Um, for a small company we have a tremendous amount of, uh, industry experience, deep technical experience. And, uh, we like to collaborate with our customers. We, you know, we'd rather not be a contract manufacturer. We like to be a partner.

[00:04:27] Michael Hennings: you know, at at Hubble that was really attracted us to pcx and making them a part of the family is that ability to integrate truly engineered solutions. So take a lot of the small components, whether that be power connectors, grounding and bonding cable pathway, uh, conduit and metal supports. It allows us to vertically integrate to make more of a complete solution as opposed to just a, a standalone unit.

So we, we can offer just a greater variety to, to all of our end users and customer. And really be just a, a more important piece of the pie to them. And Pcx brings a lot of that expertise and a, a great name in industry. That is awesome. 

[00:05:05] Chris Grainger: Well, thank you guys for sharing that, that that insight there. And so far as the modular data center world, again, this is not a world that I'm very familiar with, so I'm curious, like are there any industry headwinds that are, that are, that are looking that, that frame the actual growth and the need for more modular data centers out there?

That that's, that you 

[00:05:23] Michael Hennings: guys are fulfilling? Man, I'll tell you more than anything. It's the, the demand for more cloud computing. The man demand for more. You look at the, the major trends in the market, whether that be artificial intelligence, you look at, uh, the use of online video chats, streaming, autonomous vehicles, you know, self-driving cars.

All this is really driving the demands for more cloud computing network storage. And today the demand. Is greater than the industry can support. So they're having to build more and more data centers to house all this and then build data centers in smaller edge solutions closer to the source, right? So they can be more flexible and nimble.

And at the end of the day, they can't build them fast enough. So by building 'EM modularly allows you to build out the electrical room, the IT network, everything, uh, in parallel to site prep work or in parallel to putting up the shell of a building. So that you could deploy faster. You know, the quicker you can deploy your network, the faster that owner can start generating revenue.

So it's all about speed to market. And then also you look at, as the industry is growing, there aren't enough tradesmen out there to support all of these individual jobs. And a lot of these large hyperscale data centers are out in very rural environments, um, kind of farther away from where it's very attractive to a lot of lot of workers.

So by building 'em in, Dedicated area, right? We're able to keep a workforce. They're not having to go out and find electricians and ship 'em out to Idaho, Nebraska, and Virginia and Texas, and all over the country. It allows us to have a steady stream of workers, uh, highly skilled workers in a repeatable process.

It allows us to test onsite and ship out and get a data center up and running more consistently, more liability and, and just faster than, than a, than a traditional stick built. 

[00:07:18] Bret Lehman: And I, I would just pile one thing on top of that is they're scalable. Um, Mike mentioned the repeatability. Uh, we talked about flexibility, um, as it demands grow or accelerate or decelerate from time to time.

Um, modular solutions can be scaled in increments that are, uh, more readily aligned to what the IT demand for those for the infrastructure might be. And so if business grows, you add another module. 

[00:07:46] Chris Grainger: That sounds, that sounds awesome. I'm, I'm curious, let's play a little game here. So you got, it sounds like you have the brick and mortar style, you know, that, that we're familiar with.

And then you have the modular system. Let's put 'em in a boxing ring. All right. Let, let's let 'em, they're gonna be fighting each other, uh, old school. Who's winning and why you, 

[00:08:02] Michael Hennings: I'd say today that it's telling me that. While data center industry is growing really fast, right outta eight, nine, sometimes 10% cagr, the modular data center, that modular solution is actually growing at a 2220 4%.

So while Stick build has a bigger piece of the market today, Modular is growing faster and faster. It's because of all those tailwinds we just talked about in that last segment, and the ability to scale, the ability to move faster, the ability to be more nimble, and a lot of it's just that, that reliability behind it.

Both great options for anything, you know, your, your stick builds as good as the, the contractor on site and they can build something right. Just as well as anybody else. , but it'll, the modularity of it allows them to just be more repeatable, more scalable, and move faster and respond quicker to the market.

Right. So, in my opinion, mm-hmm. Modular is growing faster, brick and mortar's kind of winning. Right now we're talk about who has more business, but the modular piece is growing much faster than the data center world, than than the traditional stick. And I think it's, it's 

[00:09:08] Bret Lehman: worth pointing out too that, that even though we're talking about modular and, and oftentimes that, that means pre-fabricated, right?

It's built in an offsite location, but it's not to be confused with offsite construction where certain components are just built and moved to the job site. Um, the pre-fabricated modular solutions we're talking about are built in a factory controlled environment. Mm-hmm. . So there are quality processes built around that.

Uh, typically, uh, what you're going to get is you, you're in a factory, it's a controlled environment, so you're not out in the elements. So if a data center's under construction and you get, you get snow, you get rain, that delays construction. Uh, covid delayed construction at a lot of job sites. Right, right.

Whereas in, in the plant there, it's easier to control the environment and, and be able to continue to work in parallel, even though there might be a delay going on in the critical path at the data center. So, uh, that, that's another element that I think is 

[00:09:59] Michael Hennings: important to mention. 

[00:10:02] Chris Grainger: I ask a lot of insight right there.

Now I'm for, for this conversation, I wanna play a game with you guys, cuz you got, I got two experts here. Let's play the game. Is it true? All right, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna name out a couple things here. You let me know if it's true or not. Give, give us some insight. Never really done this on ecos. Why? So this will be kind of fun.

So if you guys are willing, let's, let's jump in and have some fun here. So is it true modular data centers only come in iso shipping containers? 

[00:10:27] Michael Hennings: Oh, that's absolutely false. Absolutely false. They come in skids, they come in, uh, custom enclosures and shelters. You know, an iso container really limits your ability to design the data center, right?

You have a lot of constraints. By doing custom shelters, we can withstand different load ratings. We can, you know, raise ceilings, we can make greater entrances to, to bring equipment. There's just a lot more flexibility in your modular data center when you do a, a custom enclosure. ISO is maybe faster, maybe in some cases less expensive, but it's very restrictive and doesn't allow you to scale as quickly as some of these hyperscalers one.

Yeah. I think, 

[00:11:11] Bret Lehman: uh, you know, 15 years ago when, when, uh, the, the prefabricated modular solutions were, were hitting the market, they were in shipping containers, um, and. Because of the internal eight foot wide by eight foot high footprint. Now as we try to stack more and more compute power into the same amount of.

That requires different kinds of infrastructure. Maybe it's piping, maybe it's, uh, the movement of additional volume of air. And when you start thinking about stacking cable trays and, and managing how cable moves, when you move a rack back and forth within an ISO container, uh, in order to access the front or the back, it, it, it's, it's a less, um, less flexible environment to work in.

It can certainly be, can be, can be made to work. Uh, but as Mike pointed out, the custom enclosure really just adds a lot of flexibility. Accessibility and maintenance and things like that, that, uh, uh, and that's what we see a lot of 

[00:12:02] Michael Hennings: our customers looking for now. 

[00:12:04] Chris Grainger: Okay. Set. All right, let's, let's keep going.

Is it true? Modular data centers are only used for temporary installations. 

[00:12:11] Bret Lehman: No, we're seeing these things be, be more permanent. You know, they're, they're designed for, um, multiple refreshes of it, which is what a typical three to four year cycle. Uh, we do rain tests. Uh, we design for 150 mile an hour winds.

These are meant to be standalone buildings, and in a lot of cases, Uh, end users are taking the space that they've built for whatever purpose and using it to, for more of that purpose. If there's space available outside, these things go outside and they're really intended to 

[00:12:43] Michael Hennings: be standalone builders. Yeah.

Yeah. When you think about the need for data centers and highly densely populated, you know, large cities, you don't always have the room to build a giant building into a full data center, but deploying a smaller container, um, All, all over a city or multiple locations to allow that flexibility and be close to the source.

You know, that, that edge compute that everybody's talking about, um, they, they absolutely become permanent fixtures, but allow for deployment to be more flexible. That is awesome. 

[00:13:17] Chris Grainger: All right, let's keep, let's keep rolling. Is it true ma data centers tend to be more 

[00:13:21] Michael Hennings: expensive? Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump on it first, but I'm gonna say no.

So, but it, it also depends on how you look at. The up upfront buy-in, right? Your material cost is typically gonna be higher with a modular data center. But when you look at the reduced labor cost, the reduced time for the build, you know, sometimes up to up to 30% reduction in labor. Plus you allow your data center to get up and running faster, which means the owner can generate revenue quicker and sooner.

You end up saving a lot of money and making money sooner by going with a modular approach. But it's all in how you, how you look at, is it more expensive? The, the upfront cost typically, yes. Long-term over the course of a project and how quickly you can, you can make money. The, it's absolutely no. Okay.

Yeah. It has to be 

[00:14:16] Bret Lehman: looked at in a, in a holistic way, the way Mike described, and not to mention, Think about you building a factory environment, the number of people you need on a job site to do that work, and somebody's gotta coordinate that. It's, it's, it's a simpler process and, and less complex in addition to, you know, the, that's a benefit that's sometimes hard to quantify.

Mm-hmm. . So you do have to look at it holistically. Um, the infrastructure you need to support, uh, a hundred kilowatts of it, infrastructure, power, and cooling. It's, it's roughly. But your, your, your benefits come in other places. If you're just looking at cost of equipment, you're not looking at enough of the picture.

[00:14:54] Chris Grainger: Gotcha. Well, I really appreciate you guys being so transparent with that. I mean, that's, that's really what, you know, drives this show for in particular. So let, let's keep going. I got a few more of this. Uh, is it true for you guys, so is it true modular data centers are less 

[00:15:07] Bret Lehman: secure? No, I would say, I would say no.

The. When we build a modular data center, we can incorporate any kind of physical security, um, around the facility that, okay, that you would have on a traditional data center. Same with Kelos, badge, fobs, biometric readers, any of that level of security can be built in. Um, if, if a building is subject to some kind of attack, you can protect, um, uh, a modular data center, whether it's offsite or next to a building.

You can protect it in all the same. 

[00:15:40] Michael Hennings: Absolutely agree. You know, comparable level of social security in both, uh, physical and cyber when deploying a modular data center. 

[00:15:49] Chris Grainger: All right, we've got two more here I wanted to throw with the, is it true game? So the right here, is it true you have limited hardware and design choices with that prefabricated data center?

[00:16:01] Bret Lehman: I would say if you. Uh, the, the proper amount, an appropriate amount of forethought into the design, I'd say you actually have more options. Um, uh, a lot of times what we look at is. What alternate sources of a certain component might we want to use here? Whether it be because of a supply chain issue, cuz of a cost issue, um, and with the, with the right amount of consideration in the design, you can accommodate for those things.

And it's much simpler to substitute, uh, components, um, than if you've built a building around everything and, and you're kind of stuck with 

[00:16:35] Michael Hennings: the space that. Okay. Yeah, I agree. It's all about making sure to work through those issues in advance and work with somebody like Pcx that has the engineers in place to design something that perfectly meets your solution.

[00:16:48] Chris Grainger: Okay, well the last, the last one of the, is it True Game guys? You've done great by the way, throughout this entire time, but the last one, and I'm, I'm very curious cuz I think, uh, Brett, you mentioned, you, you addressed this somewhat earlier. I want to want to get your, your further insight. So is it true modular data centers are fixed and won't scale?

[00:17:09] Bret Lehman: No, I, I would say absolutely not. I mean, the, the challenge is finding what's the right sweet spot, you know, for a given customer. We, we, we tend to talk about our products in terms of a standard offering. It's a 50 kilowatt container. It's a hundred kilowatt. But very seldom would you buy, uh, buy that off the shelf like you would a commodity, like, you know, a pan, a coffee cup, any that, that kind of thing.

So, um, I, I think what you wanna do is define the sweet spot and then to Mike's point, you know, just replicate repeatable process. And then as you need to scale, you couldn't scale up in very known increments and, and plan accordingly. Cost-wise, schedule-wise, it all becomes, uh, a lot fewer 

[00:17:50] Michael Hennings: unknowns around the process.

I agree. It's all just about, again, the, the fourth thought in the design, right. I think when people talk about it won't scale, they're comparing it to say a, a large colo. So maybe it's a three story building. And when they first open up that data center, they really only have servers on, on one floor. And as they get customers, they build out the second floor.

They build out the third floor. So they say that modular data center is fixed once it's in the. But they're, but they're modular, right? You can build them like Legos or build them like building blocks. You can add onto the sites, you can stack 'em, you can, you can move things around. It's just all about, you know, that, that initial design prep and that initial engineering that goes into it to understand how would they connect in the future?

And just to put those provisions in it. 

[00:18:35] Chris Grainger: Right. Well, well guys, that was, that was a ton of information, insight there. Thank you for sharing that with our listeners. So if you're looking at the future, you got that, that crystal ball and you're trying to, to look. Where do you see innovation headed for modular data centers?

[00:18:51] Bret Lehman: I think think it's around the, it, um, uh, it, I, I've been fortunate enough to be in this, in this industry for 20 years, and the change in the compute infrastructure over 20 years is, is staggering and it makes you wonder what's coming in the future. We do know that that liquid cooling is, is, is, is starting to gain a lot of traction, whether that's direct to chip, whether it's a rack, heat exchange, or on the back of a cabinet, whether it's immersion cooling.

I think that the, the, the challenges are going to come from what do we have to do as modular integrators to support that, 

[00:19:27] Michael Hennings: those new technology. Mm-hmm. , I'd say it's all around rap power densities for me, right. As. Racks can take on greater capacity, right? We go from 10 kilowatts to a hundred kilowatts.

Being able to integrate that into a modular data center also makes them more attractive as well, right? Uh, today packing more than a hundred to 300 kilowatts into a small structure can be challenging just because of the capabilities of the servers. But as that technology grows and we can increase that rap power density, We'll see it continue to scale.

We'll see that the market demand really, uh, start to grow because it's just all about how much cloud compute can you get into this, into this footprint as, uh, technology grows, right? The demand here will continue to to grow as well. You know, if you look at, you know, as 10 years ago or 15 years ago, a hyperscale data center, you know, was something like 50 megawatts.

And today when people talk about hyperscale data centers, they talk about 500 megawatts. So it's, uh, I, I, I really see modular data centers going in that, that same footprint going in that, that same scale as, uh, you know, the rack compute increases, so will we, 

[00:20:40] Bret Lehman: and those big guys are trying to become more sustainable, right?

They're all setting very aggressive sustainability goals. So the, the prefabrication process, the modular process, because of all the. Is inherently sustainable, less material waste and things like that. So we'll have to look at what, what materials are we using to build from? Can we be more recyclable with what we use and, and look at our materials and our waste and things like that.

I think those will become 

[00:21:06] Michael Hennings: a focus in the future 

[00:21:06] Chris Grainger: too. Absolutely. That's gonna be really interesting to see. And it sounds like you guys have such a passion for what you do as. Definitely see there's a huge demand for the, for, for this technology moving forward. So we call it ecos. Why we always wrap up with the why, gentlemen.

So, you know, if you look at the, the why behind this, why our modular data center is going to be such a pivotal part of industry 

[00:21:29] Michael Hennings: in the future. Now, for me, the, the why is about keeping up with the growth, right? Exceeding demands, exceeding expectations. We can't stick, build them fast. This is needed not only short term, but long term.

Uh, you know, I, I heard a, I heard a quip said, you know, the data center industry today is moving faster than it ever has in history, and it will never grow this slowly again. So I think that just speaks to, you know, the modulars that will just continue to develop, continue to innovate and be, you know, an integral part of the future of data.

[00:22:09] Bret Lehman: I agree. It's about keeping up with the demand and, and the, the, the value proposition of modular just continues to, uh, lend itself well to, to going into the future. We're, we're never gonna manage less data than we did today. You know, tomorrow will be more, Sunday will be more so on and so forth. Yeah. 

[00:22:29] Chris Grainger: Well, gentlemen, this has been a a, a pleasure to, to meet you to get this insight.

Where do you want the listeners to go to learn more about pcx or to connect with you? Any, uh, we'll make sure we link up stuff, but any, would you like to, to give some recommendations here while we, uh, wrap up this episode? 

[00:22:46] Bret Lehman: Sure. Uh, our website's www.pcxcorp.com. Uh, we've got a resource center there that's got all kinds of information.

All you wanna know about switch gear, about cooling solutions, uh, blogs on relevant topics, things like that. It, uh, it'd be great to have, uh, have 

[00:23:02] Michael Hennings: some more visitors. And then in addition to that, you can always go to www.hubble.com and you can explore. We have a data center landing page. We can explore not only the Pcx capabilities, but all the capabilities and products that Hubble has that are not only integrated into what Pcx does, but use in data centers all over the.

Okay. We'll 

[00:23:23] Chris Grainger: make sure we have that stuff synced up in the show notes for your listeners out there. Uh, Brett, Michael, it's been a pleasure. Anything else you'd like to share today on Eco s y? 

[00:23:32] Bret Lehman: Yes, thanks 

[00:23:33] Michael Hennings: for the opportunity, Chris. Yeah, Chris, thank you. Appreciate the opportunity. Any chance I get to come talk about this subject?

Talk about Pcx, talk about data centers, just grow with that knowledge base in the industry. I get, I get really excited. As I said, Brett and I both have real passion for this industry and what we do, so talking about it just excites us. 

[00:23:50] Chris Grainger: We got, you guys are doing a great job and we, we, we love what you're doing.

Definitely support that. And so thank you so much for sharing this, this information today on ecos y. Now that was a fun conversation and I learned a lot about modular data centers. So Mike and Brett, they are the experts. I learned so much from those guys, so it was such a pleasure to have them. Uh, PCX, they're doing wonderful things.

Uh, division of the Hubble Company. So if you wanna learn more, highly encourage you, go check out the show notes. They, they have a tr a tremendous solution offering, uh, that I love how they talk about the scalability and the flexibility of the modular data center. Tons of, of, of applications there. And I tell you what the need for, for that.

Is growing and growing. So if you're interested in learning more and potentially going into that industry in, in general, those two guys. Tremendous people you could connect with. Have a conversation. Again, check out the show notes for their LinkedIn profiles and just have a conversation. So I hope you, hopefully you enjoyed that and learned a lot about modular data centers.

I certainly did. We thank our our friends at P C X again for taking the time to share with us today. And if you're enjoying ecos, why we definitely would ask you to give us a five star rating, write a review that makes all the difference in the world. If you have a question that you would like for us to.

Hit us up. You can see me right there in the show notes, connections for me directly. Love to hear from the listeners and if you have a question or a topic that you think would be relevant that you'd like to see eco ask, why I lean into, let's do it. We will definitely do that. We'll take it on and, and it's all about serving you.

Uh, and keeping the people and ideas over products. So thank you for, for listening this week. We'll be back next week. And remember, keep asking why.

Thank you for listening to ecos y. This show is supported, a free buy electrical equipment company. Eco is redefining the expectations of an electrical distributor by placing people and ideas before. Please subscribe and share with your colleagues and friends. Also leave comments, feedback in any new topics that you would like to hear, to learn more or to share your insights.

Visit eco ssy.com. 

[00:26:11] Michael Hennings: That's E E C 

[00:26:13] Chris Grainger: O A S K S W H y.com. 

[00:26:17] Michael Hennings: Now.