[00:00:00] Chris Grainger: So welcome to Nico Asks, why today we have an ID episode and we'll be talking about how procurement serves during a continuous disruption. And I brought in an expert Michael Van Kuen, who is a, who's a Chief Procurement Officer at Coopera Software. So how you doing today, Michael? 

[00:00:19] Michael Van Keulen: Yeah. Doing very well.

Doing very well. Thanks for. 

[00:00:22] Chris Grainger: Oh, I'm very excited to have you, sir. Thank you so much. And I mean, for, for our listeners out there, paint that picture of how procurement has evolved, you know, due to the pandemic and that led to a world of contin, continuous disruption that we live in. 

[00:00:35] Michael Van Keulen: Yeah, I, I, I think this has been a, a development that we've seen over the past, you know, I'd say five to 10 years.

I, I've been, I've been doing this for a, for a little while, uh, have some gray hairs, uh, to, to prove it. Um, but I think procurement over the last decade has slowly but steadi. Been able to, to, through transformative change, really become more strategic, uh, when it comes to spend, spend visibility. Uh, what do we know about our suppliers?

How do we ensure, uh, that we have a competitive, uh, spend base? And so that has been a, a, uh, development that we've seen over the past decade. I think what Covid did and the pandemic, uh, and it was just one element of, of supply chain disruption, is it really took procurement to the next. I think executives and leadership teams and CEOs and, and, and the executive teams have realized that they didn't really know a whole lot about their suppliers.

Uh, they didn't really know a whole lot about contingencies and, and backup plans and, uh, how reli, how, how reliant they are on, on their suppliers to ensure business continuity. Um, and I think that procurement has really taken this as an opportunity to catapult ourselves into the boardroom in a very short period of time.

I think it was a development that already. Was happening before, uh, the pandemic and, and there's been other disruptions over the past two years. I mean, I think a lot of people focus on the, the pandemic and covid as the root cause. I think it was one element. Uh, we've seen some, some ramifications downstream in the supply chain, but we've seen other disruptive events like climate change, uh, of course legislation and things of that nature that.

Made procurement so much more important to companies across the globe and it has really allowed us to, to, like I said, catapult ourselves from what we always say from the basement into the boardroom. 

[00:02:20] Chris Grainger: Right, right. Basement in the ballroom. I love that. I mean, it kind of sounds like the pandemic really was just a launching point, but it had been building up to that point anyway.

So one thing normalizing in the future, Michael, how can procurement really remain strategically important? You know, in the. 

[00:02:37] Michael Van Keulen: Yeah, I, I think it's a great question and it's something that, that we talk about a lot within the profession and, and you know, when I talk to my fellow procurement leaders and procurement friends out there in across the globe is to your point, is how do we not go back to where we were, uh, and become that tactical right, uh, function again and how do we remain relevant?

Uh, I, I think the key is, is, is one clearly articulating to our chief executive officer, who historically would spend 1% of their time with supplier, , right? Just think about it, right? If you talk about the CEO and, and what they would do on a day-to-day basis, they would only spend 1% of their time with suppliers.

And I think that that is a call to action for us in procurement, uh, to ensure that the CEO does value the suppliers as an extension, uh, of their own companies. Uh, and in order for us to do that, we need to ensure that we provide strategic, uh, and competitive advantage. To our CEO and, and, and, and that respective leadership team.

And how do we do that? Well, we can do that in a whole plethora of different ways. Uh, one way would be, you know, focusing on, on E S G and environmental and, and social governance and super important in any company, your shareholders are asking for it. Your suppliers are asking for it. Your customers, your, your, your, your employees.

Um, so be, become that, that, that enabler, uh, of, of something as strategic as e s g Diversity, super important. We, we talk about it a lot. Procurement is uniquely qualified and positioned to, to, to, to steer our companies into that right direction. But we can also think about things like risk and mitigation of risk, uh, become a competitive edge when it comes to driving innovation through your supply chain.

I mean, that is level four procurement. Uh, your supply chain is the biggest innovation hub you. And I believe that if procurement is able to, in an elevator pitch type of way, uh, position procurement as a, as a competitive edge and a competitive weapon and, and a strategic enabler, we will be relevant, uh, in, in the future.

And, and I've said several times on, on, on different occasions that I believe that the chief procurement officer, uh, will be in, in the, uh, in the c e o succession plans going forward. 

[00:04:48] Chris Grainger: I I definitely wanna unpack two areas that you talked about there. Let's just start with the very first one around innovation, because you, you got, you caught my attention big time with that one.

So what does that actually look like? Let's get tactical from a procurement standpoint. Yeah. If you got a procurement professional that's listening to this episode right now and you say, look, I need to be innovative. What 

[00:05:06] Michael Van Keulen: are they actually doing? Yeah, so, so what? Just think about like if you have the right relationships, and we've talked about relationships and the importance of relationships with your suppliers during this pandemic, right?

If you did not have the right relationships with your suppliers, and you didn't have the right level of visibility and what was going on with your suppliers as a result of the disruption in supply chain, you very quickly. Uh, got into trouble, right? Like you right, all the sudden and realized that maybe the supplier of your supplier, supplier, uh, had a significant reliance on a certain country that would go in lockdown, for example, China, right?

Um, right. And if you didn't have that level of visibility with your suppliers, Then you, you, you, you would kinda lose that, that visibility in terms of, Hey, what do I do? What are my fallback plans and how can I find optionality in my supply chain? Um, so that's one element of it is just purely business continuity.

But if you have the right relationships with your suppliers, and I've seen this firsthand in, in my career so far. If you have the right partnership and collaboration and you are more transparent in, where do I want to go as a company and where's my supplier going, and how can we together potentially, uh, drive some mutually beneficial outcomes?

Um, that's what innovation is, right? Suppliers will bring innovation to their customers if there is the right level of transparency and the right level of relationship, and that gives me an opportunity to. Competitive edge. And I, you know, I was at Lululemon, uh, before I came to Coopera. Uh, and we, we had the ability to drive very innovative things in our packaging, for example.

Uh, right. And the only reason why a supplier was bringing us innovation is because we had the right level of relationship to begin with. And, uh, and that's what innovation to me means is it means suppliers are willing to open. Uh, their, their, their doors and their, you know, Hey, here's what we're thinking about over the next three to five years, if I do the same thing on, on, on my end, right, then you can drive, uh, lots of innovation in your supply chain.

Uh, and, and that's what that really means to me. Yeah, I mean, 

[00:07:11] Chris Grainger: it is very reciprocal, right? I mean, you, but you have to be willing to open it up on your end. And then the suppliers at the same time, you're building that trust, you're building that relationship and that everybody's all, everybody all just the ties are rising the ships right together.

That's what it's all about. The other area though, that you really caught my interest in was that 1% statistic around the CEOs and time that they're spending with the suppliers. So is there a goal with this? If 1% is where they're at now are what is, we're trying to get 'em a 5%, 10 per, is there a number you're trying to get a CEO too, or just what, what 

[00:07:42] Michael Van Keulen: are we chasing here?

Yeah, I mean that, that's a tricky one to answer, but you know, if I'm the chief executive officer of any company today, and I still have only 1% of my time dedicated, Talking to my suppliers. I, I, I just honestly think that, that you're missing a huge opportunity, uh, right. Because like I said, I mean, it can drive innovation and it, it, it allows you to achieve your strategic objectives.

And, but I I, I flipped it around recently in a conversation and I said, look, it's almost like a, a like a scorecard or a report card for procurement because I mean, the flip side of that is that we, procurement have. You know, let's say a mediocre job at best, at explaining and articulating to the chief executive officer why it is important to have much more relevant and, and frequent connections with your suppliers, right?

I mean, the CEO of course, they often have the attention span, um, you know, which is similar to my five-year-old. I don't mean this disrespectfully. They have of course, You know, they're running a company. They, they're responsible for thousands of employees or hundreds or whatever the size. It doesn't really matter.

They got shareholders, uh, they got investors, they got expectations, they got, you know, they wanna grow the business. And so I understand, yeah, they have a very full agenda. Uh, and, and, and in order for, for, for procurement to, to explain to that ceo, Hey, you need to spend more time in your supply chain. I need to make it relevant for him or her.

Right. I need to. Explain why. I think it's in his or her best interest to spend more time with suppliers. Um, so I kind of flipped it around and said, rather than, you know, pointing the finger at the CEO and say, well, why are you not spending more time with your suppliers? We could also flip it around and say, we, procurement should step up.

We should, you know, we should lead if you will. Right? And we should explain to our ceo, you need to spend more time with your suppliers because of. 5, 6, 7, 8 different things and I, I call it like the el elevator pitch of procurement, like the 30 seconds elevator pitch of procurement. Yeah. 

[00:09:44] Chris Grainger: Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I mean, you, you're all over right there. And I, I, I'm curious from your standpoint as well, you work with a lot, your world of procurement. You, you, you have a passion for this for people like, like eco and when we're thinking about technology in the future and how we can better serve procurement.

Procurement's point of view, they're just, they're things like PunchOut and things like that that are out there, but what does that technology enable actually entail for us to be able to serve procurement at a higher level? 

[00:10:12] Michael Van Keulen: Yeah. Um, you know, the way that I've always looked at, at technology, even before I joined the company I currently work for, um, I always right, looked at it and said, look, if, if I am, if I wanna drive best in class outcomes, if I want to have a best in class procurement function, I need to look at it through the lens of people.

Process and technology, it always comes down to those three elements, okay? I legitimately believe that without the right people or the right process or the right technology, you will never, uh, sustainably achieve best-in-class procurement outcomes. And in other words, right? You could have the best people in the world running your procurement function, but if you have not operationalized yourself appropriate, In terms of when do I get involved, uh, do I have that seat at the table as we've always sat for, you know, for a very long period of time, then I, I will always drive sub-optimal outcomes.

But if I am stuck in procure to pay and I'm not in source to contract and managing the spend through the power of technology, I will also always drive suboptimal outcomes. So the way that I looked at technology mm-hmm. in, in my career so far, is I've always looked at it as an enable. And it should allow me to focus time and energy on those areas in procurement that drive more value.

It's not about cost saving. You know, the other thing I maybe wanna, maybe I'm, I'm going on a slight tangent here, but I've always looked at procurement as not cost saving. I've always looked at procurement as driving more value out of the spend. Um, and that can be okay, cost reduction, but it could also.

Risk mitigation, better quality, better lead time payment terms, cash flow optimization. And so my point with technology here is technology should enable me to focus on those areas of the procurement journey, not just purchasing. Cuz a lot of people think that procurement is purchasing. It's very different.

Um, to focus on those elements in the procurement journey that allow me to drive more value and focus on things that I can add value rather than being stuck in, you know, direct to PO and PO to invoice that what I, we call the downstream procurement, right? That should be driven by technology and that allows me to shift my time and energy on things that drive value source to contract risk mitigation, uh, environmental, social governance, um, you know, things of that nature.

[00:12:38] Chris Grainger: Now for, alright. So does that make sense? It does make sense. I'm just curious here. So for a distributor like Eco, so we're, we're, we're the supplier serving the procurement world, right? We we're, we're calling on that, how shall we respond with the technology to, to to not just be that down to, to your point, that downstream, but get it more of that upstream type conversations and help.

I mean, do is it just, you have to have a certain level of investment in technology just to play the game and then from there, you know, what does that look like moving forward to be on that upstream conversations and to bring value? 

[00:13:07] Michael Van Keulen: Yeah, I, I, I think that, um, you know, um, uh, technology should always be very easy to use.

Uh, so user friendliness is very important, not just for internal users, but also for suppliers. Um, so adoption levels are, are critical, right? I mean, it's kind of simple, okay. That if, you know, if you buy a car and nobody knows how to drive it or nobody wants to drive it, because it kind of doesn't really drive very.

Then you've got a car that's stuck on the parking lot and you're just not using it. The same applies to technology, right? Right. It feels very logical, but I think for a very long period of time, uh, we've more focused on getting some piece of technology in your four walls. Rather than focusing on the business challenges that you have and ensure that you bring technology that drives adoption, uh, is easy to use, people want to use, uh, and, and reduces the friction between internal and external.

So in other words, your internal uses and your supplier community. Uh, and that really break down those barriers and those silos. And I think that that's what technology is to do, right? Technology is supposed to make things simpler, uh, and easier. And, and, and drive adoption and, and usability rather than it becoming either a contained within your own four walls and you don't really care about your supplier community, which is often what ERPs have done for, for us, right?

I mean, we, we were kind of prisoners, right? When I've deployed sap, I've deployed Oracle and you kind of become a prisoner almost of your own environment and it's very difficult to, to communicate externally. So it's a bit of a long answer, but my point here, It's important that we focus on the usability both internally and externally because that drives adoption, right?

And with adoption now you start to extract more value out of the relationship. So that's what I would say to you guys as well is yes, technology is an important enabler, but as the selection pro, you know, I select that technology. I need to make sure it enables that relationship in a very seamless and frictionless way.

Now, uh, 

[00:15:06] Chris Grainger: I'm also curious, I'm, I'm gonna back up one more area that you touched on, cause you touched on it two or three times I know of around risk mitigation and w Okay. As for a supplier that's serving procurement, we're calling, we're trying to, to, to help you in that, in that area. What does that specifically, specifically look like from a risk mitigation 

[00:15:22] Michael Van Keulen: standpoint?

Yeah, I, I think as suppliers, what I always call onto my suppliers that matter to me. You know, I have suppliers that, okay, you know, a supplier, uh, has a challenge within their supply chain. I maybe don't really care a whole lot. Like, for example, you know, if it's office suppliers, it doesn't really matter.

But if I've, if I've properly segmented my suppliers and I've segmented my suppliers in terms of, you know, uh, importance, you know, how important are these suppliers to my. Then what I always encourage suppliers to do is open up to me, tell me exactly what's going on in your supply chain. Explain to me where you get your stuff from.

Um, let's, let's go transparency. Right? Transparency. Exactly. And, and, and that comes back to what I said earlier. The only way that suppliers are willing to do that, if they realize that I'm not there to nickel and dime you, you know, I've never done, and you know, I know I'm on the record here. Um, you know, I've never focused just on.

Um, you know, again, cost is one element of what procurement brings to the table. Of course, I'm accountable for ensuring I've got a competitive spend base, obviously. Um, but it's so much more than that. And the only way that suppliers, I always encourage suppliers, including your company, open up your, your, your, your four door, your, your, your walls, right?

Open up your door. Show me right? How I can be more efficient for you. Maybe it is giving you better rolling forecast. Maybe it is giving you a better idea of where I'm growing, which parts of the world, which geographical regions am I growing? Cause it might be relevant for you. Right? And so my point here is it's about full transparency.

It's about opening up, uh, more than maybe historically we did. Um, maybe even giving away some of your, you know, competitive edge. And so that, that's a little sensitive, right? I'm not saying give away your crown jewels, but at least I'm saying open up more so I understand what behaviors I have that I could potentially change, and now we're actually gonna extract more value out of the relationship.

So transparency for me has always been the key, right? 

[00:17:29] Chris Grainger: And I think just from a, from a distributor standpoint, one thing I thought think about through the years for. I was a little more hesitant to just be that forthcoming with some of those areas that I could serve, like the, to, to help in that risk mitigation standpoint because I wanted to be the hero, you know?

Yeah. And, and, and, and in many ways, like we gotta stop that. Look. We just need to be transparent and, and if we just keep serving and we give you and procurement all these different areas to consider, you know, if we're bringing that right level of value in a relat, like you said, you've been saying the whole relationship the whole time about the power of relationship.

If we're focused on. Man, you know, good things 

[00:18:06] Michael Van Keulen: will happen. Magic, magic happens in a relationship like that. Uh, I I think it goes for any relationship. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's a little broader than just the business relationship, but just in, in the world, right. Uh, is, uh, if we are a little more open with our expectations, the pain points, uh, some behavioral change that we could potentially together influence, and I, I, I just think that those are the things that I, I think.

Continue to extract more value out of a relationship, whether that's in business or in, I'm not here to give you any lessons on, on your personal situations, but, um, you know, the more transparent we are, the better the outcomes typically become. It's just absolutely there's not that, that was not rocket science when I sat there, but yeah, no, no 

[00:18:49] Chris Grainger: doubt, no doubt.

Well, Michael, let's transition a little bit in our conversation. We, we, we typically call this our hero section. So let let our listeners. About you. Let's, let's, let's find out a little about you, about you behind the scenes, if you will. So just tell me about your journey to where you're at right now. 

[00:19:06] Michael Van Keulen: Yeah, I, I can, I can do that real quick.

Um, you know, I started off in accounting. My background is finance, so after I graduated, okay. I was, I was 21, uh, when I graduated in Amsterdam. Uh, I started off in accounting. I worked for Arthur Anderson, uh, for a couple years. I'm, uh, I'm an AA alumni and I'm proud to, to be one. Um, but I also realized though very quickly that consulting wasn't maybe my, my, my.

Uh, went into finance, did a couple finance gigs, set up a shared service center for finance for a company called Newan, uh, that got bought recently by Microsoft. Uh, but I was, I mean, this is years ago. Um, did a lot of finance stuff and then at Food Locker, uh, when I was the European controller, um, I got first, um, introduced to the art of Procurement and Strategic Sourcing.

So this is still a while ago. It's like 15 years ago or so, uh, where we implemented eSourcing. Um, this was when free markets got bought by Ariba. Uh, and the CFO at the time said, Hey, Michael, are you interested in doing that? And I said, well, that sounds something that I'm not super sure I know how to do.

Uh, and that goes back into my career often where I, I've taken on things that I wasn't sure if I was qualified to do, including, you know, taken on the role at Cupa. Um, but anyway, that comes back in my career several times and, and I took it on and I loved it. And I, I realized that with my finance brain, the logical side of, of the.

Um, and, and driving better business outside was something that really, really, uh, you know, got me excited and passionate about, you know, strategic sourcing we called it at the time. Um, and then from Foot Locker, I went to a company called VF Corp. Uh, VF is the parent from North Face and Vance and Timberland and a bunch of other brands.

And, uh, and that's really where, uh, you know, I took my career to the next level together with a lot of support that I've had from, from really great leaders at vf. It's a great. And, um, and I was asked to do a set up the procurement function in Europe. Uh, which we did, uh, was very successful. Then I was, uh, given an opportunity, um, uh, to lead global transformation at vf.

I moved my family to the us which was a childhood dream of mine to, to go to corporate America. So I've done that, uh, for a few years and, and, uh, we led global transformation there again with, with a fabulous team. Uh, and then was asked to, to do the same at Lululemon. And so we transformed procurement.

Moved to Vancouver. So I lived in Belgium, I've lived in Holland. I then moved to the us I moved to Canada with the family. And so my poor wife and kids. And, um, I lived in Vancouver for eight years and, and did the same thing at Lulu and then an opportunity came to uh, get to join the mothership almost cuz I, I'm a three-time Cooper customer.

That's the last time I'll, I'll, I'll position coupon on this call. But, um, and yeah, and that got me to this role and, and now I, I, you know, I get to work. You know, the global leader in business spend management and, um, yeah, and I, I love procurement and we're better to do that than, uh, than, than a company that, that has known and has really helped transform procurement, uh, across the globe.

And so I, I consider myself extremely lucky to be here, uh, and, and fortunate to evangelize, uh, the profession that I've been passionate about for, for over a decade now. So, um, yeah, that's a, that's a journey in a sh in a, in a, in a short. Well, I, I love 

[00:22:14] Chris Grainger: the journey. I had so many that was very, very interesting.

So, where is home now for you, Michael? Where are you 

[00:22:19] Michael Van Keulen: guys located now? I, I recently moved back to Europe. Um, okay. So I, I reside in Holland, uh, which is my home country. I hadn't been there for 10 years and so, no longer 15 years. Uh, okay. And so Covid realized that we can work anywhere. Uh, and I, I, we want it to be closer to family and, and my parents and family and friends, et cetera.

And so we moved back to Europe. Yeah, I, I, I, I love what I do. I, I, again, I, I consider myself, uh, extremely fortunate to represent, uh, you know, 3,500, uh, plus employees or colleagues of mine companions. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's a fabulous time to be in procurement. This is, it's the best, it's the best time to be in procurement today.

Uh, and, uh, there's never been a better time to be in. Well, 

[00:23:02] Chris Grainger: I'm, I'm curious on that, you know, what, are you seeing some of the, the biggest challenges out there that procurement has in the future and that you guys are, are addressing directly? What, what 

[00:23:09] Michael Van Keulen: would they be? Yeah, it, I, I think, you know, of course if you look at, look at the economic, uh, outlook, uh, I, I think, you know, we all read the papers and we know that probably the next 12, 18 months are gonna be challenging.

We don't know how long, we don't know where it's going. Inflation interest rates, Uh, you know, there's lots of disruption. You can now see that some of these really large organizations are starting to shrink their, uh, their employee base. So that, of course, is going to have some ramifications downstream.

The holiday season is upon us. Uh, retailers are very, very nervous across the globe, uh, in terms of spending, uh, inventory levels are, are extremely high. Um, so there's, to sum it up, there is a lot of stuff for procurement to, to get nervous. Um, but here I also, you know, I'm a glass half full kind of person.

I'm, I'm, I always like to be positive and I say, you know, if you look historically companies that were able to make the right investments during times of high disruption and potentially, uh, you know, the recession or whatever we, we, we call what's coming up, um, the companies that made the right investments are the ones that are going to thrive.

That has historically been proven. There's lots of great studies out there, mck. Has done some really good research around that, for example, where you see that companies that made the right investments significantly outperformed companies that didn't. Uh, because you can do three things in times of stress and, and, and, and, and, and uncertainty.

You can flight, fight, or freeze. Uh, and, and you know, I highly encourage your listeners, uh, to not run for the hills, you know, not go like, oh, you know, we don't know what's gonna happen. I'm just gonna sit back and, and see it, you know, see the train coming. Uh, no. Let's think about like, where do we invest? Do we need, uh, to have better operationalization of the procurement process?

Do we need to invest in technology? Mm-hmm. Do we need to invest in people? How do we arm ourselves to be ready for whatever comes next? Because we, nobody knows. Right. There's midterm elections. I, I was reading the news this morning. I don't know, we, I don't think anybody really knows what's going on yet, uh, with Congress and the Senate, and that's really important for, for this part of the world.

But in Europe, we've got, of course, the, the horrible, uh, situation there in the Ukraine. Uh, we've got the winter coming and nobody knows when that's over. And of course, we all hope it was done yesterday and it should not have, you know, like, but, but my, so my point is there's still a lot of crazy disruption out there.

We don't really know what the future bring. What I think for us in procurement is that should not give us anxiety. It should give us opportunity, um, to make the right investments in, into, into our infrastructure and make sure we're ready for whatever comes next. 

[00:25:52] Chris Grainger: Right, right. Well, thank you so much for, for really unpacking that.

Cause I mean that they were really, uh, good salient points around true risk and Harry's to consider moving forward. And maybe somebody's listening, Michael, and they, they heard your journey. They, they heard about all the wonderful thanks. You're doing the. Give 'em some advice if they wanna pursue that career.

And procurement, you know what, what, what would you tell 'em if they're just getting 

[00:26:15] Michael Van Keulen: started? One, congratulations cuz you've picked a fabulous profession and, uh, well done. So congrats if there's no procurement school yet. Yeah, I think that if there's one thing that, and this is a side step we have real quick, but if there's one thing that we should figure out is how do we at all these fabulous schools, all across the.

Uh, start to get people excited and passionate about procurement because it is a fabulous profession. You're at the heart and the center of the universe. Uh, you drive innovation, you drive strategic objectives, you drive value, competitive edge de-risk, your supply chain, environmental, you're actually here to, you know, we can actually drive real meaningful change in terms of climate.

Uh, you know, I mean, we are at the epicenter of, of all of that. So, one, congratulations for picking a profess. That I think is the best in the world, and I really believe that, and I never wanna do anything but procurement on the record here. Um, but what I would say is don't be afraid. Uh, procurement is not easy.

It, it can be very, very challenging. Uh, don't be afraid, and I've, I've said this before a few times, but don't be afraid to get scars. Uh, don't be afraid to disrupt. Don't be afraid to step up and lead and challenge the status. Scars create character. I have a few, I'm happy to share them, uh, with anyone of your listeners if they ever wanna know.

Um, but it is, you know, it is our responsibility to, uh, not disrupt for the sake of disrupting because that's, that, that is meaningless. But there are, in any company in the world today, I guarantee you that I could come in and with me, lots of other great, fabulous visionary procurement leaders to come in and drive real meaningful change.

And the reason why we do it is because we can drive more. So my, my encouragement to your listeners is one, again, congratulations. I know it's a longer answer, but, so forgive me. Congratulations. No, don't be afraid. Step up and lead. Disrupt the way you need to and don't be afraid to get some scars along the way.

Okay. I, I, I think that those are probably my, my my, my top things. What 

[00:28:18] Chris Grainger: about the one that may be listening right now and they say, you know what, I don't wanna go to procurement, cuz that's all they do is just cut pos all day. What would you, what would you tell to that, say to that? 

[00:28:26] Michael Van Keulen: Well, that's a great opportunity for you to stop doing to, I mean, that's not procurement cutting pos, that is level one procurement, right?

Uh, and, and that's not, uh, judgment, that's not a, uh, you know, I'm not saying that's mediocre, uh, but that is level one procurement. If you're in, if your company, if you're listening to this and you are spending 85 or 90% of your time in the downstream process, then it means that either you need to change the way you've operationalized procurement, but you very likely are stuck in an e r.

You're stuck in some old legacy, uh, technology landscape, and it's a great opportunity for you to drive significant value in your company. So it's a perfect time. I would love to come in. I, I don't wanna come into a company where it's all been done, right? If I really wanna drive a career, and if I wanna make some, some really great career moves, then I wanna come into a company where either they have no procurement or it's level one procurement, because the value that you can create in an organization like that is significant.

Um, and it's exciting. You know, it's exciting that it's, it's an exciting journey. I've done it a few times and I'm happy to share more detail, but, uh, it's, it's the, it's the best time to be in procurement if your organization is down in, in, in procure the pay land. Um, it's a perfect time to go into procurement.

Yeah. And extract some meaningful value. 

[00:29:45] Chris Grainger: I mean, would you mind unpacking just a little bit on that? Cuz we, we have, we serve a lot of manufacturers and, and I'm sure some of them are at that level one. Just couple steps that you would recommend taking? 

[00:29:55] Michael Van Keulen: Well, I think the first thing you wanna do is run a real deep analytics of your spend, right?

I mean, there's no way that you can determine and, and, and, and, and claim value proposition if you don't know what your baseline is. And I'm still amazed when I talk to practitioners. Uh, I run into them at conferences or I have some Zoom calls here and there with, with fellow leaders, and I ask very simple questions.

What is your total spend? What is your total addressable? How much of that spend you have on the contract? What is your REC two P cycle time? How much of that is electronically invoiced? Do you have a no po no pay policy? Very basic. That's basic stuff. Yeah. For me, that's still level one, level 1.5 procurement on a fourth, on a one to four scale.

Right. And I'm often amazed that the answer is, oh, I don't really know. Or, oh, I need to, I, I think it's kind of this, but it could be, I'm like, no, if you don't know. If you don't know your checkbook, if, I don't know, 80% of the spend with 20% of my suppliers, if I don't know who I spent my dollars with and, and what my contractual obligations are and, and what to start an end date of my contracts are, is.

And if I don't know any of that basic stuff, then how on earth can I ever expect my company to think of me as a strategic advantage? Right? So, so my point here is, um, I'm still amazed. So that's, that's step one. Step one is check. Then you're gonna start to look at the checkbook and see with what suppliers you spend the most amount of money with.

And then you're gonna of course, hone in on that. Um, and you're gonna earn some strategic sourcing events to extract some value that is still, that is level two procurement. That is not level four, that is level two procurement. And then you start to manage that contract with that supplier. Uh, because now I have a contract, it's like marriage.

Once you get married, you start to actually, you know, kind of commit to what you. Right. Is at least what my wife always tells me. And that's right. You know, and so now you start to manage that relationship together and like we just said, relationship management, category strategies, demand management and, and things of that nature.

Now you're starting to become level three procurement, right? You're start to manage the relationship with your supplier, manage the contract from start to end. Uh, you start to write category plan. You understand cost drivers, you understand the market dynamics, you understand the competi. Uh, situation of whatever it is that you're buying, whether you buy widgets or consulting or it doesn't matter what you buy, logistics or shopping bags or what hangers, it doesn't matter.

And now you, so that's level three procurement. And then ultimately you wanna be level four. Level four procurement is supply chain excellence. It is driving option optionality. It's digital twin of your supply chain. Um, it is drive innovation in your supply. So that's like getting you from level one to level four.

It's gonna take you three to four years. Yeah. This is not six months. It's not a sprint. Right? It's not, let me quickly get to the finish line. No. It's a journey and it's a constant journey because new people come into your company, people leave. People come and go. They bring in their own business practices from wherever they were working, and they're like, well, in my old company, I never had to go to procurement.

I could make my own decisions. I'm like, well, that's. That was your old company. That needs to be segregation duties, right? If you're a budget owner, you should never be running a strategic sourcing event because there's a conflict of interest, right? I mean, if I am the budget owner and I make the award decision, somebody in between needs to at least make sure that we drive the right competitive process and we've evaluated and we provide optionality to our leadership teams and our stakeholders and, but then procurement does not have the D of.

It's very important, right? A lot of business leaders are like, I don't wanna work with procurement, but all you guys care about is the lowest cost. I'm like, yeah, that's maybe the procurement team you were working with in your old company. That, but that's not procurement. Procurement does not get the cheapest and the most cheerful solution procurement is how do I drive the best outcomes that are supporting our strategic objectives and optimize the value of my spend?

I mean, to me, that's what procurement is. And so I'm, again, it's a bit of a long answer, but my point. That's how we need to position procurement. If we position procurement like a, a value enabler and a, you know, I, I've told marketeers, how would you like me to give you 20% more budget? Absolutely. And set up, cause marketeers are infamous to say, I don't wanna work with procurement because you're gonna cut my spend and then next year I won't get the same budget.

Like, no, no, that's not the, it might be one point, but we can also potentially, uh, extract more value and give you more. Right. Right. I mean, it's a very different approach and, uh, but I would say procurement should not have the d of decision, but we certainly own the strategic process. 

[00:34:43] Chris Grainger: Right, exactly. Well, man, thank you so much for unpacking that.

I, I'm curious, you're such a passionate guy. When do you get your fulfillment outta your work? Like what brings you the most joy and, and what you do day in and day 

[00:34:54] Michael Van Keulen: out? Well, I've always, and I hope that, you know, those that have ever reported to me, or I've supported, I should say, yeah. Uh, would, would, uh, would, would, uh, validate this.

But, uh, my number one at, at cooper and at all of my pre private, uh, uh, prior companies has always been my team. Um, you know, I, I strongly believe that I am here and it's not popularity contest by any means, uh, that my team is the number one. Supporting my team, developing them, giving them exposure, uh, supporting them and, and, and, and also demonstrating that, right, it's okay to make mistakes, right?

You say at Coopera, fail fast, move on. Uh, you know, like, so that has always, and what gives me the biggest satisfaction is to see people that I've supported, uh, during my, uh, tenure, if you will, uh, profess. Uh, that they take on bigger challenges, uh, bigger roles, uh, that they're successful, right? Uh, that they're thriving.

Uh, nothing gives me greatest satisfaction to that on the professional front. Um, so that's one element. Uh, the second element is like in, in my day job today, is I get to evangelize a profession that I've loved for a long time, right? And so that gives me, I mean, you know, I wake up every day, um, and I, uh, consider myself extremely lucky.

Truthfully that, that I get to do what I do every day. I, I believe I'm at, you know, at the right company, at the right time, uh, doing all the right things and uh, and that just gives you so much energy, uh, and drive that, uh, yeah, I, I mean, I, I couldn't be happier on that front and on the personal front, I, we have, they're 14, 12, and five and, uh, yeah.

And just trying to, uh, give them all the tools that they, that they need to be good standup citizens and, and, and, and fulfill their, their life goals. And just do the best I can. I'm not saying I'm perfect by any means, but, uh, all we can do is give, give it our best shot and, and, uh, and hopefully, uh, they pick it up.

And, uh, and, but also on the personal front, I, I have lots to be thankful for. Wow, man. 

[00:37:02] Chris Grainger: Thank you so much for that. I saw you get, you said 14, 12, and five for your children. Yes, sir. That's a, that's a good boy, two girls and a boy. Okay. Okay. So your, your boy, your son sounds like he's gotta be a tough guy if he's got two older sisters.

[00:37:17] Michael Van Keulen: No, well actually he's the middle, so he's the 12 year old. He's the middle. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, he's the middle. Um, and yeah, I mean, the five year old is a little firecracker and, and, and my daughter, the 14 year old is, uh, is I think, uh, more, more like her dad than her dad even realizes. Uh, okay. And, uh, and our son is, uh, he's, he's got the great heart and, uh, and he'll, he'll find his way and, uh, yeah.

It's, you know, as a parent, it's just interesting to see how. Children, uh, all end up being very, very different. And, and I think that we should just recognize that there's no one path. And, uh, diversity is the key to everything in both in, in, in the personal, but also in the professional world. And, um, yeah.

And it, it's, you know, it's just very interesting to see, uh, these little adult little kids grow up into many adults, if you will. Yeah. And, and, and see where they end up. And I'm excited to see where that. 

[00:38:11] Chris Grainger: That's exciting. Thank you for sharing that. So we also love to hear from, from our heroes. Michael, what's a hobby that you have?

What do you like doing for, uh, for fun? Maybe to check out, just to, just to relax, but any hobbies you'd like to share? 

[00:38:23] Michael Van Keulen: Um, well, I, I must admit that with three kids and, and a fairly busy life, uh, I, I, I probably am not the best. You know, to, uh, to, to, to give people, uh, advice on how to unplug. I find it very difficult to unplug, to be honest.

It's also how I'm wired. I'm, you know, I, I'm right. You know, it's so, so, but the things that I love is I love speed. Uh, people that know me know that I love speed. Uh, uh, so, you know, I've done nascar. I, I've done open wheel, uh, You know, I've done 200 miles an hour on a motorbike, uh, before we had kids though.

So I just wanna do the disclaimer there before people go like, what an irresponsible parent. Um, but, uh, but I, I love speed. So that's one element that, uh, you know, I, it gives me, I love skiing, uh, yeah, it gives a certain amount of adrenaline. And, and I, so I'm a bit of maybe an, a bit of an adrenaline junkie, but I also love just going for a walk.

Uh, you know, we lived in Vancouver. And now of course, back in Europe, uh, you know, just go for walks, uh, with the kids. Go to the beach if you can, or, you know, just unplug that way. I, I mostly spend my time, uh, outside of work with the kids and, and, uh, yeah, sometimes drive them around, but, uh, yeah, I, it, it's, it's not easy to find the right balance.

I, I have to say that that's probably one of my life goals is to find better balance. 

[00:39:41] Chris Grainger: Well, I mean, I have to, I have to unpack one area you just said there. So when you said speed, I've never had a guest really say speed and talked to the different areas that you did specifically. So you mentioned nascar, so did you drive nascar?

Did you, where, where were, 

[00:39:52] Michael Van Keulen: were doing No, I had not profit, no, not, not, uh, not consecutively and races and stuff, but I, I went to the Charlotte Motor Speedway, uh, when I Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so I've, I've driven there in the nascar and, uh, uh, I did 182 miles an hour. Um, Which was, uh, at today was the highest speed, cuz the, the, the lady that gave me the certificate looked at me.

It's like, wow. You know, it's like, um, you know, so I, you know, I am very competitive as well, uh, as you probably guess. Uh, and, uh, oh yeah. You know, so when I was younger I played soccer and I'm very, very competitive. I'm a very, let's just say, uh, poor lose. Um, you get better over time. Yeah. But when I was younger and if I'd lose right, I wouldn't be very happy.

Uh, and, uh, let's leave it with that. But, um, no, I, I just love to, to try to always optimize. If I think if there's one thing that I, you know, if I kind of think about things, um, you know, I always wanna capitalize and maximize, uh, the potential. Um, so with software, I wasn't good enough to be a pro, but I certainly made up in effort.

What I didn't have in. Um, you cause skill, skill without effort is meaningless. Right. If you are highly talented. Right. But I tell my kids all the time Yeah. If you're highly talented, uh, uh, but you, you know, put in half the effort, it doesn't mean anything. Yeah. You know, if you get the best, the waste, yeah.

Uh, you're just wasting. And I've said, I, that's the time where I get frustrated honestly, is when I see people have the potential, but they don't capitalize on. Right. Um, and, um, you know, but you can't teach passion. Right. I mean, It's very challenge. I find it very hard to, uh, to teach people to get passionate about something, even if they have the, the skill and the talent.

Um, yeah. But again, skill and talent without, uh, effort and, and, and energy, uh, is just, just, yeah, just talent. It's nothing. It mean it's not Right. 

[00:41:45] Chris Grainger: That's right. Man. Thank you so much for sharing about that stuff, Michael. So we're, we're getting here to the end of our interview with the last two things I'd like to do.

We'd like to do a lightning round, then we wanna wrap up with the, with the why. But if we can, let's play that lightning round first. It's quickfire. You just fire back with what, what answers that come to mind. You good with that? Sure. Let's go. Let's give it a try. All. Alright, so a Amanda has literally traveled the world and lived in so many different countries.

I'm curious on this one. So what is your favorite.

[00:42:13] Michael Van Keulen: Uh, oh my goodness. Uh, Portuguese. 

[00:42:17] Chris Grainger: Portuguese. Okay. All right. How about your favorite adult beverage? 

[00:42:21] Michael Van Keulen: Uh, Pinot Grigio. Pinot Grigio. All right. What is, uh, the 

[00:42:26] Chris Grainger: app? Okay. Okay. What's, uh, what's an app on your phone that you can't live without? Email. Okay. Yep. Yep. I hear you. I hear you. How about the all time favorite movie?

[00:42:41] Michael Van Keulen: Uh, godfather. Ooh, 

[00:42:46] Chris Grainger: nice. Alright. Now, what type of music do you enjoy?

[00:42:55] Michael Van Keulen: Uh, Bob Marley. 

[00:42:58] Chris Grainger: Oh, okay. That's the first Bob Marley we've ever. All right, I hear you. What's, say gimme a guilty pleasure. Do you have any guilty pleasures going?

Pizza. Okay. All right. And then the last question for you, Michael, you did a great by, by the way, you're doing wonderful. Dogs or cats? Dogs. Alright. You, you 

[00:43:20] Michael Van Keulen: get that answer? I call energetic though. So we have a dog, we have a Labradoodle. Uh, okay. I'm allergic. I am 

[00:43:27] Chris Grainger: too. So, uh, I have a giant snz. And a Yorkie.

So actually my wife has a Yorkie. I don't, I don't claim the Yorkie, but I definitely claim the giant 

[00:43:35] Michael Van Keulen: ser . Yeah. I got, I, I, I managed to only have one cuz you know, that was a, the kids, the, the kids and the wife strong armed me into a dog. Let's leave it with that. 

[00:43:46] Chris Grainger: I hear you. I hear you. Well, great. Great job with the lightning round.

Michael, it's been a pleasure to get to know you. You've shared so much insight and wisdom on this episode. We call it Eco Ask. Why We always wrap up with the why. So for those listening, why should that procurement con constantly be acting to remain strategically important and that world of continuous disruption that you've 

[00:44:06] Michael Van Keulen: been talking?

I think the world needs it. Um, I think for too long, uh, we have undermined the importance of procurement, uh, and what we can bring to the table. Partially it's because we were just unable to, as I said earlier, step up and, and, and lead and articulate why we, why we are relevant. Uh, but I think the world needs it.

If, if there's one thing that we need in the world, it's better business practices, uh, environmental, social governance, uh, you know, there's so much out. Today. Mm-hmm. , business continuity, risk inflation, all these things that are out there today. And I think if there's one functional area that, that is, has, is uniquely qualified and positioned to, to support our, our respective companies.

I think it's procurement. So, uh, you keep fighting the fight, um, you know, it's, it's not always easy. Uh, but if we are dedicated and passionate, then I'm, I'm confident that, that we will continue to be, 

[00:45:03] Chris Grainger: That is wonderful. I love that so much. Now, where should the listeners go if they wanna connect with you or Coupa to learn more and, you know, um, where are you most active?

Just to, just to like, to give you a chance to 

[00:45:12] Michael Van Keulen: give a shout out here. Yeah. You know, you can email me m vk coup.com. Not gonna be much easier than that if you ever wanna have a conversation Okay. About whatever your companies are doing or, cause I'm a constant learner. I think you have to be in procurement.

So I always wanna hear other people's perspectives. Uh, it, it helps inform me. Et cetera. And I think together, you know, like it's that none of us is as smart as all of us, as we say at Cooper. So I always welcome m vk cooper.com. Uh, I do enjoy, uh, putting things out on LinkedIn. I always welcome people's perspectives and comments.

So those are probably the two best ways to, to, uh, to, to get in touch. 

[00:45:49] Chris Grainger: Okay. We'll make sure that I'll synced up in the show notes for you listeners out there. And Michael, thank you so much for joining us today on ecos y. 

[00:45:55] Michael Van Keulen: Yeah, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. 

[00:45:59] Chris Grainger: Yes, sir. Thank.

That was a really fun conversation with Michael, and I'll tell you what, I learned a whole lot about procurement, particularly around the areas of that continuous disruption that he's, he mentioned about. So just a couple things that really popped out to me, that risk mitigation, the areas of risk mitigation that we could focus on, that we should be serving.

And innovation cuz I think I really like how he broke down the innovation areas into tactical ways that you can actually move this forward. So, tons of insight. This'll be one, you need to go back, listen to, you know, one or two times, take a lot of notes. Particularly if you're in procurement. Cuz he, he really broke it down that, that four tier procurement that he broke down at the end, if you're looking for the roadmap to procurement to really build out something.

He gave it for you right there. So if you're in 1.0, don't worry. It's okay. You can get to four. But remember, it's the journey. This is not gonna happen in six months. This, this take, he mentioned two to three years. But it takes intentional actions. And if you need help and procurement, guess what? ECO is here.

We're here to serve. We can help you in these areas and put and get a lot of experts to help you along your journey to get there, to get you to that 4.0 that you wanna be. So again, thank you for listening to ecos. Why? Be sure to check out Michael, all the wonderful things they're doing. Check out the show notes for all that.

Give us a rating, write a review that makes all the difference in the world. Share this out with someone, particularly if they're in procurement. Maybe you're in in engineering right now at. Share this with your procurement group. They would probably just one, like to get something from engineering to actually let them know that, that you value procurement.

So go ahead and send that email. You can tell 'em Chris sent you. That's fine. Get me in trouble. That's all good, but just share that stuff out. Thank you for listening. Go again to eco asks why.com if you want to connect and learn more about our, our episodes or eco online. To learn more about eco directly.

Thank you. Come back next week and remember, keep asking why.

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[00:48:18] Michael Van Keulen: That's E E C O 

[00:48:21] Chris Grainger: A S ks w h y.com.